Learn about the experience of women in Islam. Is a hijab really considered restrictive?
Transcript: Women in Islam
Penny: Making people take off a headscarf is the denial of civil rights.
Doaa: Yes.
Penny: Wearing a head scarf is important to your Muslim identity.
Doaa: Yes.
Penny: Wearing a headscarf is important to your cultural identity.
Doaa: Yes.
Penny: Wearing a headscarf is an awesome fashion statement.
Doaa: Yeah.
Penny: Welcome to the Diversity & Inclusion for All project supported by Calvin University and the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship. Together, we'll listen to key perspectives, build our knowledge, inform our thinking, and get a little better equipped to engage our world.
Welcome, everyone, to the Diversity & Inclusion for all podcast of Calvin University. I'm Pennylyn Dykstra-Pruim. And today our topic is Women in Islam. I'm excited today to have with me Doaa Baumi, a wonderful guest and a colleague of my colleague Frans van Liere. And she is here to help us understand a little bit some different issues and perspectives related to women in Islam. Doaa, I am wondering if you would introduce yourself a little bit for our audience.
Doaa: Yeah, sure. So basically, my name is Doaa Baumi. I'm Egyptian, living in the UK right now. I got my bachelor's degree from the university with a very prestigious university here in Cairo. It was basically my major was religious studies. And after I finished, I was more interested in getting the Western perspective. So, I applied for a Fulbright and I went for a master's degree for two years, and at the University of Chicago. And this was actually like opening eye for me because I felt like more interested to do even more deep research on my topic. So, when I'm done with my masters, I went back to Egypt. I taught for a year. And again, I went again to seminary, called [. ] seminary in Kandake. And this was mainly on interfaith dialog. So I felt I really need it because most of my studies was also in Islamic studies. But I felt interfaith also is something that really interests me. So I went for seminary for a year. And when I came back, I was basically know what exactly I'm going to work on. So, I applied again for a U.K University, and I got admitted at University of Birmingham and currently am a Ph.D. student in my final stage. Hopefully I'm going to finish soon. By March or so, I'm going to submit my dissertation.
Penny: So I could imagine you're really busy right now trying to meet that deadline.
Doaa: Exactly.
Penny: Thank you so much for taking time to talk with us today about women in Islam. And I know you have such rich experiences as a Muslim-identifying women. And then with on top of that, your studies in the United States and in Egypt and in the UK. And I'm really excited to to learn from you today. So, Doaa, I'd like to start with kind of a personal question, if that's OK. I'm wondering if you can share with us what draws you to and inspires you about Islam or about being a Muslim.
Doaa: So, actually what inspires me. I was born and raised as a Muslim. And what I like about Islam is when I looked into scripture the Qu’ran, I see the Qu’ran is actually talking about Islam, Islam is not actually exist in a bubble; rather, Islam is the continuity of other religions. So, for instance, I see one powerful verse in the Qu’ran talks about how as a Muslim, I don't only have to believe in Prophet Muhammad, but also I have to believe in the other messengers. And also, I have to believe in other prophets, and I have to make no distinction between them. So this is one thing. I also like to see within the Qu’ran itself the depiction of the biblical prophets is very strong. And most of those depictions are scattered all over the Qu’ran. And when you look at the prophet Abraham, prophet Noah, and how their experience, their spiritual experience is actually part of me as being Muslim. And even when it comes to Prophet Muhammad, most of those verses approaching Prophet Muhammad, telling him he has to learn from those previous
experience. He has to learn from those previous nations. And that's actually something that really I found really powerful, because it tells more about Islam is not something that actually exists in isolation. Rather, it respects and appreciate the previous experience and also various prophets.
Penny: I love how you appreciate kind of the long history and the way that Islam builds on other traditions as well and includes pieces of other traditions in its own understanding of faith and religion. So today our topic is women in Islam. And we want to understand this a little bit better by the end of our podcast together. One of the associations that I think a lot of people, I know I used to have this association, too, but a lot of people in the United States especially, think about Islam, and they associate that with cultures or practices that they think of as being oppressive to women. Can you help us understand how women are viewed inside of Islam and then maybe also how Muslim women are or are not oppressed within Islam, but then in different Muslim communities or in predominantly Muslim countries?
Doaa: Yeah, I think just to answer this question, we have, first of all, to differentiate between our religion in theory and the practice of Muslim women in general. So, first of all, I felt when we talk about Muslim women and how they are oppressed in some communities, I think to some extent this is actually true. I cannot deny it, but we have also to open our eyes to other factors that makes those Muslim women, you know, just oppressed. For instance, if they are actually living in a poor neighborhood or if the Arabs feel like they don't have access to good education. If even like within the religious leaders, within those communities, some of them, they try because they live in a place where the culture is very dominant. They try to justify their position by trying to look into the scripture itself and see the verses that support their position. And that's actually what happens. But what I saw in media is basically when they say it's actually Muslim women who are oppressed, but they stop at this. But I feel like this is not the reality. They actually took one part of the reality and they ignored the rest of the factors that make those Muslim women are oppressed.
Penny: Right now, we're recording this in August of 2021, and we're in the middle of pulling out of Afghanistan. The United States is. So, in the news we hear things about …that some of the women in Afghanistan might be afraid of what's coming next and that they might be under a governmental situation where they feel more oppressed. Is that a real concern?
Doaa: Yeah, it is, of course, because, again, it is a question like to what extent those Muslim women who are oppressed, they have other issues within their community. And to what extent does community understand Islam as it is. Because, again, there's a number of different interpretations, and some people take it to the extent that to justify their own culture, their own tradition. So, again, it is really a very, you know, just confusing question.
Penny: And I think, too, for for me as a Christian, I kind of draw the simile like it can be similar to different countries or communities or times in history where Christians, too, have had practices or said “I read in the Bible that we have to do this,” and then those practices end up being quite oppressive to women. And you're saying like the same thing can happen in Islam, that there's a combination of certain cultural things kind of almost separate from religion, and then it combines with some religious leaders who will look at the Qu’ran and say, because of this and this, we're going to have these practices and they actually can be oppressive to women.
Doaa: Yeah, exactly. And even like within the those religious leaders, when you look at them, because they are the only one who have knowledge of abuse, kind of like, you know, a poor neighborhood, no one else is going to, you know, just debate or argue with them. And they try to claim that they actually like own the absolute truth. And that's why you see like they even they don't just offer sort of like the the variety within one school or within one tradition. They just claim that, well, it's just one truth and you have to accept it. And because those women, they don't have access to good education, their chances of just trying to challenge those religious leaders are really low because, you know, they they don't even have the tools. They don't have the knowledge to argue against them.
Penny: And I think, too, actually, there's similarities to some Christian history as well, where women maybe weren't allowed to study theology and become pastors and leaders. So, they were kind of disabled from launching or even being part of discussions that talked about women in theology and in our own traditions, in the Christian traditions. I'm wondering if you could then talk a little bit about… because you wanted to make this distinction between kind of some countries and cultures and where women are arguably oppressed, and that some people there try to continue to do that based on, quote unquote, their religious beliefs. But you wanted to distinguish that from how you see women in Islam and in the Qu’ran. So I'm wondering if you can help us understand a little bit how you see women in Islam and how you see the Qu’ran informing how women should be treated.
Doaa: I think just when you open the Qu’ran and there is a number of women who have been depicted within the Qu’ran and they are actually some of them, they are prophet's wives and some of them they are prophet's mother. When you see those women, how they are actually depicted within the Qu’ran, you see them, they are very powerful and they are depicted as actually partner. And they are part of the religious and spiritual experience. And I just want to give one example to make this clear. If I'm taking the example of Moses’ mother and how her choice to throw her son, it's actually it’s her baby actually into a river and how she is really powerful to make this decision in order to save her baby. And again her sister she went here and there, just try and make sure he's OK. Again, another woman who was actually involved in this and he's actually …Mose is going to be really a prophet within the Islamic tradition. So, his mother first and then his sister is taking part and even she's trying to go to Pharoah’s palace, that there is a lady who can actually protect him and they accept the fact that his mother is just coming by as a one who can feed breast him. So, again, you see here like how women are really in full involving in this sort of like story. Again, it is actually like Pharoah’s wife who was able to save him, because when she saw him on the river side, she convinced her husband, although during those times he was actually killing all newborn babies. So, she was able to convince her husband, well, let's take it as adopted son. And he accepted. So, again, I, I see here as women actually are very powerful in most of those stories. If I'm just going to another story, I'm using Mary's story. Again it's a very similar from the Bible. Mary is actually being pregnant with a baby without necessarily getting married. And this is actually something very difficult for her community accept. And she is really powerful to come back to her community, stand up for her right, and speak about her baby. And she even within the Qu’ran, she asked this of Jesus to speak. And he was able when he was a newborn, he was able to speak. And this was sort of a miracle from God. So, again, if you saw …if you see those sort of like examples within the Qu’ran itself, you wonder like how those women were really powerful and why we are now think bad of ourselves. So this is one part when we come to the Qu’ran, but again on the other part, when you look into the first generation of the Muslim community and you see how the prophet’s wives were actually, again, part of the religious experience. I would just give one example as his youngest wife, Aisha, who was actually he she left after the prophet passed away. And she was able to give most of the knowledge in her to most of the great companions. And even within the prophetic tradition, because they have to find someone who was trusted she was trusted. And she was able to sit in the mosque and preach and tell most of the companions about how the prophet were acting this way, his life this way. So, again, she was, I would say if we are using the our modern terms, she was actually like a scholar, and she was just preaching everyone is not necessarily women like yourself, but just everyone, men and women. So, again, when I'm just looking at those two examples, the Qu’ran on one side and the first religious community on the other side, I see we are quite far from those two different examples, because, again, it is not just the religion itself, but more of other factors who are really like causing those oppression to women right now.
Penny: It's really inspiring that there are these stories and your tradition where women, even from early on in the Muslim Islam, the growth and birth of Islam, where women are really scholars and teachers and are messengers almost of God. Right. That they have messages that are really important for us to hear. And they are given a place in society to give that message to us.
We associate sometimes wearing a headscarf or a hijab or even a headscarf with more of a face covering, that we can associate this with Islam in certain areas of the world, including sometimes in the United States. And some Muslim identifying women, I understand, choose to wear a headscarf or face coverings, and some do not. But they would they… it could be that they both consider themselves to be devout Muslims. What should we know to understand these different choices and practices a little bit better and with more nuance?
Doaa: I think when it comes to whether wearing a headscarf or face covering this is, I would say this is actually like a personal choice.. And one thing within Islam itself, within all the religious rituals, one has to have the intention to do the act he wants to do. So, for instance, if women are just wearing headscarf for the sake of just trying to pleasing her community or because she has a social pressure that she has, this is not going to be acceptable within Islam itself because she doesn't have the intention to do so. She do she does it for the sake of something else, but it's not for the sake of Allah, like for the sake of God, for the sake of just pleasing or being obedient to her own religion. First of all, we have to understand this. And we have also to know, if I'm talking about women in Egypt, to be honest, like wearing the headscarf, this is actually the majority of women are wearing headscarf and just you find few are wearing a face covering. But I can I can see like within the other Arab countries, some women are just wearing face covering. And the reason for this is basically we have two different you know, just verses from the Qu’ran, which is open for different interpretations. And some women think that, well, face covering is is actually a mandatory while for Muslim women in Egypt think no actually the headscarf is by itself is enough. But again, within the practice itself you see, as women are here, like in Egypt, I think like everyone is just wearing the headscarf as she likes. It doesn't have to be the same. Like some women like to wear low [ ] headscarf. Others wanted to do tie the way they like. Some like to wear like just colorful ones. Other like to wear like white or black. So again, it is personal choice. And it's a question why women are doing this, because even if you go to upper Egypt, you see actually Christian women, they are wearing headscarf. And the question is why they are wearing headscarf. Some people would argue it is because of the Islamic influence. Women in upper Egypt, especially Christian women, are wearing headscarf. But again, is it like a cultural thing? Is it a religious thing? I think it's up to women. They have to decide why are we doing this? But again, I don't see any reason for anyone to force those women to do whatever they doesn't like. They don't like to do, because it's it's a moral intention. If the women has the intention to do it for the sake of her religion. So it's her choice to do so.
Penny: In the Qu’ran are there verses that seem to indicate that women should cover their head or cover their face and head?
Doaa: Ah, yes. There is a very clear one, at least for me, that actually women have to wear a headscarf. And that's actually I would say that full Suni school of thought they agree on wearing the headscarf is actually mandatory. It's an obligation. There is a minor differences between, as I said, like how how would this actually like how they describe the headscarf. Is it like a quite long one? Is it short? Does it have to cover the face and ear and the, you know, the chin? It’s a different description. And that's how we see like the sort of like a minor debate on this.
Penny: And I think, too, from what I've read, I’ve only read just a little bit, but in the culture of the time, headscarves and and head coverings were very common in many cultures in that area of the world. So, even for Christians, when we think of images of like Mary or something, the the Virgin Mary, we think of her often with some sort of head covering. Right. Just because it's part of the cultures in that time period. But then you're saying there are people today who look at the scriptures and the Qu’ran, those sections, and interpret them differently, that some people will say that this is clear and we need to do this. And other people look at that and say it's related to cultural expectations. And today I interpret it this way and I don't need to wear it. So there's both of those I would say like takes on those passages. Right.
Doaa: Yeah. I think also one thing to just highlight here is basically the practice of roughly twice in the first religious community, they were actually wearing a face covering. And one of the interpretation is, OK, we have to do this similar to what they did already did. But I think other interpretations tell us more. Well, this is actually was a particular matter for those women who lived during this time, but doesn't have to do anything with the generation coming up after them. I think those are the the school I'm actually following. And I would say this is the majority of Egyptians will follow this sort of like this school.
Penny: Mm hmm. So you've indicated that you have chosen to wear a head covering, right?
Doaa: Yes, but not a face covering.
Penny: And that you see this as an important sort of practice, faith practice for you. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about that decision and what it means to you to wear a headscarf.
Doaa: So, first of all, just living in that community. Like, well, I was actually raised and born as a Muslim. So, basically I saw this everywhere. I saw my mom just wearing a headscarf and I saw just most of the women around me. So just frankly speaking, when I did this first, it wasn't not really part of my faith, but it was part of the culture thing. So I started wearing it as something that really makes me more connected to my community. And again, during this age, when you just felt like, well, I just want to feel really relevant to everyone else. So, when I did this first it was basically because of my cultural thing, because I like the color on my headscarf. I feel like it's really it's a very nice outfit. I can match you with everything I wear.
Penny: Some of them really are gorgeous.
Doaa: Yeah, exactly. So, this is my first thought. But later on, when they start researching this issue within the Qu’ran itself, and I start reading the verses and also trying to see how those verses were interpreted within the first religious Muslim community, I felt, well, this is something really like needed. And it is for me just being obedient to God. Although it is again, it's actually just a flag. So I'm just walking everywhere and carrying my flag on my head. But I feel like all of this is actually for me as a Muslim, part of me just being like, you know, I'm just so connected to my own community.
Penny: It helps me to to hear you say that the choice or the practice of wearing your headscarf is really two things. It's it's both a cultural thing and it's a faith thing. And I think and it's interesting that you talked about having come to it first, just sort of growing up with it, as a cultural thing and wanting to be part of that community. And then it grew into something that was a faith practice for you, I think that's just really beautiful.
So, I have another question about how to understand my Muslim neighbor a little bit better. I'm wondering if you can help us unpack a little bit how Islam is generally practiced in the USA and how that’s same or different from how Islam is lived out or practiced in other parts of the world.
Doaa: So, I left Egypt in my 20s, and I when I left Egypt before that, I felt, well, I thought this is actually there is one version of Islam which is basically I saw everywhere in Egypt and the way that people are celebrating Ramadan, how they fast during Ramadan time, how they celebrate Eid that comes after Ramadan, the way that women are just wearing the hijab, the color, the use and their hijabs, all those different example. So this is actually Islam, general. But then when I left Egypt and went to the States and I met with different kind of Islam for me because of the cultural thing. So, for instance, I met with Indonesian Muslims. I met with Turkish Muslim. I met with European Muslims, American Muslims, and they start to feel well, again, that's actually similar to the way I understand Islam. But there is again, it's a bit different. For instance, I can just bring one example here: in Ramadan, when Muslims are fasting from sunrise until sunset, the way we celebrate Ramadan is basically after we're done with fasting, usually people just like to donate some of the food to people on the streets. Some of them, they are traveling, so they might not have the chance to eat proper food. So what happened is the at least some families would cook food and just go on the streets and stop, cause they even could wave to some speeding cars and ask them to take some of the food, because the time for breaking their fast is coming soon and they have to have a proper meal with them. So this is one thing I used to see in Egypt streets during Ramadan time. However, when I came to the States, I felt it was quite hard for me to see how everyone is just eating on the streets. Right. Because it's actually a non-Muslim country. And there are many like, you know, just people that are not really observant, are not fasting Ramadan. So restaurants are still open during the daytime. Coffee shops everywhere. People are just hanging everywhere and just chilling and enjoying their time. So it was kind of like a challenge for me. However, within the Muslim community, I see how Muslims during this time like to feel really the sense of community during Ramadan time. So, they usually gather during the time of Iftar. They want make sure that there is one family who is able to donate and cook whole food for the whole community, or sometimes they are just bringing people to cook for them. So usually every day, sometimes even within the university itself, they have Iftar or a meal, which everyone is just coming with their friends and family to eat together. And I think this is actually a way distributing food, but it was kind of like a different example. And the reason is, basically, if you live in a western country, again, you have to feel the sense of community. However, in Egypt, people, they don't have to be together because of the basically they have their families, that they have their friends and they can invite them over to their houses.
Penny: So in some ways, when you grew up in Egypt, it sounds like some of the practices of your faith were so baked into the culture that it were kind of …that was kind of easy. And then when you came to the United States, it suddenly was almost more work or you had to really seek out the community where that was happening.
Doaa: Yeah, exactly. Even during the time the Eid time, which means that everyone has to be off because you have to celebrate. It is more of like you have to write official letters to the University or the school or whatever, telling them, well, I have a holiday and I need to be off because I need to enjoy this time with my family. Yeah.
Penny: So, I'm wondering if you can look back at your time when you left Egypt, where you'd grown up and you were in a very different culture and not predominantly Muslim culture. If you could look back at that time and I wonder if if those changes and being now like a real minority, a religious minority, if that made your faith stronger or if that was a real challenge to you and your faith.
Doaa: Yeah, I would say it was actually both. So it was it mixed my faith. It actually challenges me first, because, again, a lot of questions you have about your religion. You take everything for granted. And it is really nice to get someone who like I would say outsider ask you a lot of challenging questions. And honestly, I would say, well, I have no idea or I have never thought about this. And I just go back home. I start really search and see, because, again, I felt like I myself need to answer this question, not actually for the sake of just providing an answer back. But again, I myself need it now. And sometimes I would say like I just go home. I couldn't sleep because I need to find an answer for this question. So again, it was a challenge for me at first, but it makes me really more connected to my religion. And I remember when I came back home, I started to challenge my some of my friends by asking those questions. And I would tell them: imagine someone on the street just asking you those questions. And honestly, they have no answer, because, again, just raised and born within your own tradition and love, being able to meet with people, outsiders again, it makes you take everything for granted. But once you meet with people that are from outside of tradition, those are the times where you are getting more interesting and some of the questions as well.
Penny: That's a great advertisement for folks to consider doing some interfaith work and engagement. Right, to kind of meet people who think differently about you, especially about faith and religion, and then have those conversations where you can sort of figure out yourself what you believe and why.
Doaa: Just one story here. I've seen … remember when I went to Harvard seminary, I had a roommate and she was actually a Catholic from Italy. Roman Catholic. I used to wake up during early morning, perhaps around 4:00 a.m. because we within Islam, we have this sort of like morning super early morning prayer. And when she saw me, she said like, well, she likes it. So so, she starts actually doing same thing. And I was asking her, OK, is it something within your religion? She said like, yeah, I can actually do it, but I like the fact that you just wake up early for the sake of doing something for your God and it is in Islam a very appreciated prayer because, you know, like within Islam, usually people just go to the mosque and pray. But during this time in the morning, it is perhaps hardly someone is seeing you during this time. So it is more of like really like a very special time just between you and God. And no one else is expecting you to be there because basically everyone is sleeping. So, my roommate, she likes this idea of like really a very sacred moment and a very special time when you just you and your lord, and you just pray to your lord in those like sort of like early morning hours.
Penny: That's a beautiful image. And that you're sharing this with your Roman Catholic roommate, right. That's that's kind of cool.
Doaa: Yeah.
Penny: I would love to know from you, Doaa, what you would most like other people to know about women in Islam. And maybe it would be helpful just to say these things are not true about women in Islam and these things in my experience, in my faith, these things are true about women and Islam.
Doaa: I just would like to I just would like to say that women in Islam, women Islam is just it's like every women, like they have the right to educate and to have access to good education. They have the right to marry, whatever they like …the men they like. They have the right to have their own career. And Muslim women are not oppressed everywhere. Within the new generation, there is actually a promising situation because now, especially with the economic crisis, more women are more interested in getting education and getting their own career. And even their mothers, they are sort of like encouraging them to do so because this is the only way to have their own livings. And even if they are married, they still have to have their own career and they still have to have the good education to be able even to be a good mother. So, to say that women, or Muslim women generally are oppressed, this is not true. But we have to think twice before we see this as… because, again, it is not only if you see Muslim women who are oppressed again, I would consider other factors who already contribute to this, sort of like the oppression. It could be poverty. It could be misunderstanding of religion itself. It could be other cultural actually reasons. But it's very hard to consider Islam as one factor that really oppressed women.
Penny: I think that helps me a little bit, because there are so many factors that go into those situations that we hear in the news, right, where we associate Islam with the oppression of women. And it's helpful to remember that so much of that is not the religion directly, but it's how we interpret it. And it's the culture and it's it's power. It's about grabbing power and keeping certain people in power.
As we close out our time together, I'm wondering if you have had experiences where you felt really that you've been discriminated against or that there's been, you've experienced a lot of prejudice or bias because you wear a headscarf and are easily identified potentially as a woman, an Islamic woman. Have you had experiences that would be helpful for us to hear about?
Doaa: Yes, I actually have had those experience in both in the sSates and also in the because right now I live in the UK, but again, it is I still consider my experience in general as a positive. I do appreciate that those people were more interested in asking questions. So, although you are just getting those sort of like weird looks, some of them, they would just come to me and start asking a question. And once they open up and ask questions, I feel like, well, they at least they want to learn something. Again, I understand that the what they watch in the media and perhaps I'm the only Muslim they met in their own life their whole life. So basically, this is for me, this is normal to have the back of their mind, because most of the things we watch is actually a, you know, just sort of like negative image about Muslim women.
I remember like on the bus, I met a number of women who were more and more who are more interested in asking me questions about the hijab and why I'm wearing hijab, and even with my doctor. So, one time I went to the doctor and she was helping me because I had a pain on my neck. And she started asking me, OK, are you wearing this while you are taking a shower? And although those those kind of questions for me was kind of like a very basic. I felt like, well, she doesn't know. She should have said, I'm the only Muslim she met in your whole life, so I need to provide an answer for her. And again, I did appreciate the fact that she's really willing to ask the question. So I think my really experience was kind of positive because most of the people I met, we again had a chance to chat together. And this actually gives me sort of like makes me comfortable to open up and explain. Some of those questioned were basically about what we saw in the media….Blah, blah, blah. So, again, I can tell why are they having those sort of like a negative image.
Penny: Sometimes I've heard in the news in the past that countries like France or sometimes Canada or communities want to have laws or policies where young women and older women who are wearing a head covering are not allowed to wear a head covering. And I want to …I wonder if you could help us understand that, like, how does that make you feel and what could we do to make this country or that country still a welcoming place for a woman, a practicing Muslim who wants to wear the headscarf?
Doaa: I think one thing that came to my mind when I'm watching those kind of like news is basically are perhaps those people they think like Muslim women or even women are having their headscarf. They might sort of like actually subscribe to sort of like a conservative school or they might have sort of like ideas that are really sort of dangerous. But this is not true, because, again, if you think of headscarf, it is basically because they are seeing this in their religion and just they want to be obedient. It doesn't have it doesn't indicate anything else behind just the headscarf. It's actually a dress code for a Muslim woman. It doesn't have to …they don't have to be sort of like a dangerous or sort of like really subscribe to any sort of like terrorism or anything else. But I assume some of those people are just trying to banning those women. They have this in as a background, actually, Honestly, it’s even happening in Egypt. We have some of those areas …wouldn't allow women who are wearing this class to just just be permitted to work or they're just sitting in those sort of like beaches because they said, no, we actually have a dress code that really doesn't have to a dress code that doesn't include headscarf. So those were wearing headscarf are not allowed to enter those areas.
Penny: How interesting. I remember, too, hearing a while back that in Turkey, right, there were some policies in certain areas where university students were asked to remove their headscarves when they entered the university area. It kind of is a strategy for from Turkey to try to get into the EU. Long story. But it's interesting that sometimes that even happens in Egypt, right?
Doaa: Yeah. Yeah, sometimes it really does happen in Egypt.
Penny: Any last insights or stories that you didn't have a chance to share that you'd like us to hear to help us understand a little more about women in Islam or your own journey?
Doaa: Yeah, actually and like when I started my journey to the States, I remember on a plane I met an old lady. She's American. And she was asking me some of those questions about, OK. She first of all, first of all, she said like, OK, are you Egyptian? And I said, yes. She said, like, are you going to the states? I said, yes. She said, look, are you moving by yourself? I said, yes. She said, like, what is your father? I was like, what's wrong? She's like, do your family allow you to go to the states? I said, yeah. She's like, why are going? I said, like, because I am going to school. And she like, wow, that's awesome. Do you think how many people would think the same in Egypt? So it was kind of like a funny question, but really it tells more about like how so many people in the states think of like Muslim and Egyptian women living in Egypt. I was like so many people because in Egypt we have a lot of scholarship. For instance, Fulbright is a very, you know, just like prestigious scholarship. And there are so many women every year who are admitted to scholarships and they are just [ ] out in the states without necessarily having their family with them, and they just go to pursue their career. So, I start to get used to those kind of questions. But for me just to meet on a plane someone like that sounds like kind of like, wow, that's really interesting, because I felt like those kind of like a very basic information. And I can tell generalizing is not really what I did. But again, the lady was very honest because she was asking very innocent questions. But she was… she has a concern about, you know, like just me troubling myself and just saying I'll be by myself. And she was wondering what I'm going for. She kept asking me questions about like, are women are free to get a good education in Egypt. And I said like, yes, my mum is a doctor and she's really like, you know, she’s just helping women everywhere. And so, again, I felt like this lady was really like just trying to ask me the right question in the right time. And I felt like I guess we're [ ] just for going to the States.
Penny: Mm hmm. And I appreciate that story, because it kind of points out too the things we hear in the news are sometimes the more extreme things, right, where we might see stories where women are potentially or threatened to be oppressed in certain countries or areas of the world. And then there's Egypt, where you come from, where you were raised, and where those questions are, like, what are you talking about? Women can't get educated.
Doaa: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Penny: You said you're going to hopefully finish your dissertation in March. What do you hope you'll be able to do in terms of interfaith engagement and just actually being a representative of your faith in the world.
Doaa: So I'm actually working on a project right now. It's called Scriptural Reasoning Across Borders. And it aims to bring Muslims and Christians together and also, to some extent, Jews as well, to read the scripture together and reflect on on them. But basically, I'm working on this with students because I felt, especially with undergrads, they have sort of like a fresh ideas. And it's very good to help students from everywhere to be connected together and just read scripture together. So scriptural reasoning can be done on multiple levels. But I'm more interested as using scriptural reasoning as actually a tool to help students to understand their religion better. So, for instance, if I'm just bringing in a group from Egypt and from the UK and from the U.S. and they all undergrads, and they're just coming via online platform and they are reading their scriptures and reflect on them, this is actually very powerful because you feel like a lot of students they haven't done any sort of similar activity before. And even especially within Egyptian community here, a lot of students are studying religion, religion. But again, this sort of like studying religion in theory, and there is no way of encounter with the other, having the chance of meeting with people from other traditions and even having the chance to read their own scriptures. So, I think this is really something promising, because I felt I had this experience when I decided to leave Egypt and travel to the States and the UK. And I feel I I want everyone here in Egypt, especially those who are interested in interfaith and religious studies, to have the same experience. However, it's going to be hard to just take them physically to the same destination. And that's why I thought about this sort of like online platform, because it's very easy right now. Technology hubs everywhere. You sort of just need to initiate …have the sort of like online platform and invite students from everywhere to join. And it's really amazing. It works very well.
Penny: I think scriptural reasoning has so much potential. From what I've read and seen of it, different groups get together and the groups are diverse. So as you said, there could be Muslims, Christian, Jews, or other religions in the room. And then together they look at the same passages, maybe about a similar topic that you might find in the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Bible or the Qu’ran. And then just discuss together where …how they see those passages, how they interpret them in their own life and traditions, not necessarily as theological experts, but just as people that come from a tradition. And then you get to understand each other a little bit better. And it's super cool that you can do that now with people from around the world. That's such a cool project, and I wish you all the best with that moving forward.
And I also want to just thank you. I know you're joining me right now from Egypt. So we're in quite different time zones, but I appreciate you taking time at the end of your day to join us and have this conversation and help us understand a little better some of the issues around women in Islam.
Doaa: Thank you so much. Thank you.
Penny: If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast to stay informed about future episodes. Do you have a friend who would be interested in today's topic? We'd love it if you'd share our work with them. Our hope is that this project will spark good conversations and provide learning resources that inspire diversity and inclusion work. All views and opinions expressed in our episodes are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and positions of Calvin University or the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship.