How can you begin a journey of interfaith engagement? Discover in this episode some strategies, concrete advice, and next steps.
Transcript: Strategies for Muslim-Christian Engagement.
Frans: I think an important guiding principle here is also reciprocity. How would you feel if a complete stranger came to your church?
Doug: So it's it's been an enriching experience spiritually for me to know people whose relationship with God is different than my own.
Penny: Welcome to the Diversity and Inclusion for All project supported by Calvin University and the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship. Together, we'll listen to key perspectives, build our knowledge, inform our thinking, and get a little better equipped to engage our world.
What are some great strategies, approaches, ways to go about engaging across lines of religious difference, especially perhaps with our Muslim neighbors? I'm wondering if you can share some strategies, some next steps that people could take if they're interested in engagement, in Muslim Christian engagement.
Doug: Well, one thing you know that we do here in the United States is that we visit each other's worship space. That's not always the case. It's not so easily done in other countries, but here in the United States Muslims visit Christian churches and Christians visit mosques and synagogues and and temples. I mean, here in the United States, you could go to yoga on Thursday. And the mosque on Friday. And a synagogue on Saturday and church on Sunday. And a Christian Science discussion on Monday. But that's the sort of thing we do. It's not the case everywhere in the world. But but that that being said, we can take advantage then of our opportunities to get to know Muslims and go and visit a Muslim worship service.
Penny: So if I'm interested in doing this, but I don't already have a connection to an area mosque or to area Muslims, how can I do that without like being a bull in a China cabinet or without a seeming too aggressive?
Doug: Sure. Well, one way, for example, here in Grand Rapids is that you can go to a website of the mosque and email an information person or or actually fill out a request for a visit, because in the United States, many, many mosques anticipate and welcome visitors. So they have they have a way they have ways of doing that. And they might give you a date and group you with some of the people have done the same sort of request. So you don't have to know anybody necessarily or have any kind of connection. Just email somebody at a mosque’s website.
Frans: I think an important guiding principle here is also reciprocity. How would you feel if a complete stranger came to your church? What do you expect from this stranger and what would you find helpful? What would you find hurtful behavior? You know, you could put yourself in somebody else's shoes and imagine how you would want another person in your church to behave. And therefore, mirror that behavior when you visit the worship center of another religion. That's just a matter of common sense.
Doug: I was just going to say, you can get together with some of the friends from your own church and as a group, approach the mosque and say, we would like to visit, but then, yes, expect to go respectfully and follow some some guidance with etiquette.
Penny: What are a few of the etiquette rules or things that I should maybe be aware of if I'm thinking about visiting a mosque?
Doug: When you go to a mosque, everybody drops their shoes at the entrance and you will need to do that, too. Women are often requested to wear a head covering of some sort, usually for foreign visitors or for non-Muslim visitors a lot of leeway is given, but women are usually asked to cover their heads. Some mosques will have a separate entrance for men and for women. You might ask about that. Those are the first kinds of things. Then I would say don't expect to pray with the Muslims. Instead you are a visitor, and in my experience, it's best to go in and sit at the back of the worship space and observe and to say nothing and to just be a respectful observer.
Penny: Whether or not to pray is actually an interesting question, because I know that some people – I’m going to say maybe some Christians -- can feel a little bit scared about going to a mosque, like maybe it's not a good or a spiritually healthy thing for me to do, to go to a mosque or to be part of a worship service. Can you help me think about that in a better way?
Doug: I think it's a common feeling of fear and of intimidation, doing anything new.
Frans: There is something very beautiful and powerful about seeing other people worship in their way. But don't don't have the feeling that that this is something where you should participate. You know, quite quite the contrary. I think it's more respectful not not to participate and just be an observer. Watch the beauty of other people worship and be devoted to what really matters in their lives. To me, that's a very powerful thing to watch.
Doug: Having taken a lot of groups to mosques, I would add this observation: that the experience can be a bit disorienting at first because Muslims are not sabba-tarians. And so what that means is that they treat worship space differently than Christians do and that they often will come from work. That's also because it's it's a Friday worship service. But they often will be on their phones or there's no there's no compunction against doing business in a mosque. Whereas Christians treat Sunday-- the day of worship --as as a day of rest, from our tradition. For Muslims, this is not the case at all. And so that might help explain a lot of the kinds of things that you observe on your first visit to a mosque that might surprise you.
Frans: One thing I would also add about your own being in a space like that is, no, don't don't be afraid to to be yourself and be be alone even to to ask questions in obviously in a in a respectful and not in an antagonistic way. But I always say, well, there's no question that's a stupid or a dumb question. People are very willing to explain things to you. And people are very, very welcoming and hospitable in my experience, even if you make a complete faux pas and a mistake. I went to a mosque with my my wife in Indonesia and my wife unthinkingly made a mistake of stretching out her hand to shake hands with the guide who was going to show us around. And then very apologetic, he said, I am sorry. I am in a way that I am trying to be a Muslim, I cannot shake hands with with women. Very sorry. He was very apologetic about this. And my wife realized that she had done something that she probably shouldn't have done, but everybody was very gracious about it. So don't be afraid to make mistakes and do a faux pas as long as you do it out of a respectful attitude. People are very gracious and forgiving.
Penny: I found that in the times that I visited mosques also that they were very gracious. And, you know, I went with groups and they --the mosque community-- appointed different people to kind of be our guides before the worship service. They would introduce us to what was going to happen. And then after the worship service, they were there to answer questions and give us a tour of the facilities. I really found it to be a really positive experience, and it kind of took away the mystery and in some ways made it a less scary thing that there's this mosque on the street down the road. So I found it to be a really positive experience for everybody.
Doug: Prayer goes on at a mosque five times daily every day of the week. And so the kind of visit that we've been talking about, I think we mean the Friday afternoon prayers. That's the gathering of the whole community together. And what will happen when you go to Iraq to visit a worship service like that is that there will be a call to prayer and then the service will begin with a sermon, and then it'll be followed by congregational prayers where everybody stands up shoulder to shoulder in rows and goes through the prayers together, using the same motions, using the same silent prayers together. And then the service concludes often with some announcements for community events going on or something like that. And people often very quickly leave to return to work or to to go about their business. The whole thing takes maybe forty five minutes, maximum.
Penny: And I really, when I visited, I did not feel at all like any pressure to participate or to participate in their prayers or do anything that I was uncomfortable doing. I was very welcomed to just be an observer and kind of sit in the back or to the side and just take it in and just watch and reflect on what was happening.
Frans: Yeah, it's like sitting in somebody's house in someone's living room. Right. I mean, you're not going to impose your views on when you are a guest in somebody's house, you respectfully ask what the rules are. Do you want me to take off my shoes? Fine, I'll do that. And but people treat you as a guest. It doesn't take much imagination on how to be a gracious guest. So that's what the advice that I give. Just be a gracious guest.
Penny: Another thing that I think is important to remember when we talk about Muslim Christian engagement is that it's not my job in this moment of crossing a religious a religious line, it's not necessarily my primary job to convert them or I don't know, don't mean to be afraid of someone trying to convert me to Islam or some other religion. But I need to be focused on just a healthy relationship that we can live together in community.
Frans: Well, that's the rule of hospitality right. Again, when you go to somebody's living room, you don't go around telling them that they should repaint the walls, this color or that color, and that would be something that is impolite. So there are just certain things that you should or should not do, because that's the common sense of hospitality.
Doug: I found that Muslims are not fundamentally interested in converting you to Islam. When you show up in a mosque that's not really on their mind. They're interested in being a good host and they're interested in you getting an accurate and adequate view of what Islam truly is.
Penny: So if some of our listeners have learned a little bit more about Islam or interfaith engagement and what that is and isn't, and they're interested in taking next steps, one thing they could do is potentially check the website of a local mosque, send an email and organize, sort of like a field trip or an outing to get to know them. What are the things which you recommend for people who are starting a journey that want to learn more about Islam? Just to be a good neighbor and to understand our Muslim neighbors better.
Frans: I think the next step from being a good neighbor is make friends. And I think friendship is a wonderful way to learn about the ways that other people live their lives. That's what I would tell people to do, just make friends with other people across religious dividing lines.
Doug: In many cities like ours, you probably have encountered Muslims or people you think may be Muslims at the grocery store or owners of a small business. And I would say don't be afraid to ask me, are you Muslim, you know? Maybe they'll tell you, No, I'm something Sikh who also wear turbans. But yeah, France to to make friends and to be to be yourself. Muslims are people just as we are.
Penny: I think, too, there are a few things that are common to many, though not all people who identify as Muslims that can be helpful for us if we're just trying to be hospitable, like correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of Muslims will not eat pork. They will not drink alcohol. And there are some religious holidays that are important, really important, like Ramadan, which is about a month long of a certain type of fasting. And if we can be more aware of those things, we can be more hospitable when we have people over or we have business luncheons or whatever. So I think those are important things to keep in mind as well, just in terms of being good neighbors.
Doug: And you're right. Most Muslims that I know do not eat pork. Some do not drink alcohol. Some do. But it's right to be aware of that, for example, in a situation where you're serving food or something like that.
Frans: Yeah, I had a Muslim friend who was middle-aged and he was quite happy when research showed that it's actually quite good for your heart to drink a glass of wine every day. And he got his. He did have that high blood pressure. And his doctor said, well, you wouldn't be a bad idea for you to do this. So he was quite enjoying, despite him being quite, quite a faithful and observant Muslim, he enjoyed his glass of medicine a day, as he called it.
Doug: Well, it might be interesting for you to know that one of the most famous and moving Muslim poets of of history, Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi, as well as other Muslim poets of the Middle Ages, frequently used the metaphor of wine drink to talk about the human relationship with God.
Penny: Really?
Doug: Yes. They were not opposed to the use of alcohol themselves. Right. And and even to be in the presence of a loving God was for them, a kind of experience of being high or tipsy with alcohol was a kind of metaphor of being tipsy with the love of God. So these these Muslims were not opposed to the use of alcohol at all. Even though others at that time disagreed with them vehemently, as do many Muslims today, that's not a universal.
Frans: Of course, Christians have quite different experiences and different attitudes towards alcohol as well, depending on, you know, whether you are a Baptist or a Pentecostal…Pentecostalists or Catholic.
Penny: So I think that's important, though, to just understand that Muslims today and Muslims in America are diverse. You will have some Muslim-identifying women who wear a headscarf or a hijab and others who don't. And they would both potentially consider themselves to be devout Muslims. And some will drink alcohol and some will not. So I think, you know, my takeaway is if if I have a Muslim colleague at work or a student in my class or neighbor is just to be aware of some of the things that might be concerns or ways to show hospitality that I need to be aware of, and then maybe just be in a position to have a relationship and a conversation and ask, how can I, you know, is it OK if I serve alcohol? Would you like to? And just to be in that kind of conversation where we can just be kind to each other.
Frans: Yes. And I think that's why it is important to create friendships as well, because with friends, you can sometimes ask difficult questions and hard questions or even make mistakes with each other and still be forgiven for the mistakes that you you commit without endangering the relationship.
Penny: In one of our early episodes in this mini-series on Muslim Christian engagement, we talked a little bit about why interfaith engagement is important to us. And here kind of at that …near the end of our little mini-series on Muslim Christian engagement, what would you like to leave with our listeners as sort of encouragement or inspiration for taking some first steps across those lines of religious difference? Like why, why would that potentially be a really wonderful thing to do?
Frans: Well, I think that religious diversity is kind of a fact of life, right? I mean, American society is pluralistic. It is diverse. So if you engage with people who are different from you in an informed way, you will be all the more richer for it. And I think it's the best way to make sure that these contexts are fruitful and benefiting and contribute to your own growth, as well.
Doug: I’ve deepened in my relationship with God by talking with with Muslims about their own relationship with God. They have taught me things and helped me see things that I could not see myself. So it's it's been an enriching experience spiritually for me to know people whose relationship with God is different than my own.
Penny: I also think it's important because I want to live in this country where there is religious freedom, that I learn about other religions that are here so that I can respect them and also understand how I want to respectfully disagree with certain things that they believe. But to remain ignorant seems like I'm not even recognizing them, and I'm almost not embracing the fact that we live in a society that's religiously plural, right, that that can be these different religions and we can all live together and have a functioning society. So taking those steps to learn more about my religious other religious neighbors is kind of affirming: I want to live in a place where there's freedom of religion and I respect other people's rights to to believe what they believe about God and life and how to live life. And I want them to respect me. And if we're never talking to each other and we're never in relationship, I don't know how we can build that respect.
Frans: You can disagree about the questions like, do we all worship the same God or not? But what I do believe is that whether we are Muslims or Jews or Christians, that we're all prone to follow the same false gods, gods of greed, of violence, and pride. And I think that contact with people of other religions very often make us see those vices, those false gods in ourselves more sharply than than we ourselves can see them. So I think in that way, it is beneficial to to have contacts across religions, to distinguish those false gods that I might be worshiping, unbeknownst to myself, more sharply.
Doug: For me, interfaith dialog is not just about peacefully appreciating one another's own search for God. That's true. But it's also… it also leads me to recognize and appreciate the differences that I have with other people, people of different faiths. You know, take Muslim views of Jesus, of Jesus son of Mary. You know, I and my Muslim friends disagree profoundly about Jesus son of Mary, Jesus of Nazareth. But the Muslim critique of the Christian view of Jesus as the divine incarnation has helped me and deepened my own sense of how important incarnation is in my spiritual life. So though we differ profoundly, yet it leads me to greater insight.
Frans: And the other thing is that, of course, one thing that that we are very often agreeing in is that we we need to fight against these false gods sometimes. Right. I mean, you may have completely different ideas about who God is or different ideas about incarnation, but but we are both united in a fight against injustice. And I think that's where Christians and Muslims can find connections and then where we need to to work together.
Doug: Yes. Or Jesus's statement: You cannot serve two masters. My my struggle within myself about serving God or serving myself, about serving God or serving money, about serving God or serving success, is shared by my Muslim friends. And we talk about that kind of thing a lot.
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