In this Part II episode on Scriptural Reasoning, our guests discuss in a bit more detail the why and how of this interfaith practice.
Episode 38: Scriptural Reasoning Part II. Why and How?
Penny: Welcome to the second episode exploring the interfaith practice of scriptural reasoning. If you're interested in a basic introduction to scriptural reasoning, we recommend listening first to Episode 37 “Scriptural Reasoning Part I. What is S.R.?” In this second episode on the topic of scriptural reasoning, we explore the why and how of this interfaith practice.
Jeff: Understanding is something we're always coming to. It's not something that we have. It's not a possession. It's something we're coming to. And we need new questions and others can bring those questions. And that's what I have found so refreshing and inspirational about scriptural reasoning.
Frans: So, it humanizes the others. And I think that was one of the best educational experiences, one of the best learning outcomes of this course that I could could have imagined. Yeah, this is not something that you have to do along very specific rules, so you can just get together with a number of friends across religions and say, Hey, let's do this sometime, right? It's the informality is, I think, one of the strengths of scriptural reasoning.
Jeff: …and I am discovering that I am being discipled by others, cultural others and religious others who ask new questions about the scriptures that I've read over and over, the terms that I just gloss over. They'll say, What does that mean?
Penny: Welcome to the diversity and inclusion for all project supported by Calvin University and the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship. Together, we'll listen to key perspectives, build our knowledge, inform our thinking and get a little better equipped to engage our world.
So, my understanding about scriptural reasoning is that someone in advance would probably choose some texts from different religious backgrounds --like something from the Qur’an something from the Hebrew texts, something from the Christian Bible --that were maybe all about a particular theme. And then we'd read together those two or three different texts and allow the people of faith from those texts to kind of talk about how their particular texts, how they read that and how they understand that in their lives.
Doaa, I know you've had a lot of experiences with different kinds and levels of scriptural reasoning. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about those experiences and what motivates the learning and what the benefits are.
Doaa: So, I have done a number of our sessions with the students and also with people from all over the world. But I think what really interests me more is doing SR and use it as educational tool because it helps students or are coming from religious background to know more about the other, especially those who are doing studying religious studies, but they don't have a chance to encounter with the other.
When it comes to it felt like there is a number of challenges. one of them is basically when it comes to students who are interested to join, but also a bit worried about this idea of like conversion and whether the other person is interested to convert them to religion, or whether you are going to subscribe to certain theological agenda. Or is it more like preaching your own religion because I have some people will have this sort of tendency to preach about their own religion, and they wouldn't hear anyone else. Usually with SR, we ask for a facilitator to do the whole session. And, so usually when I do this, I would just ask a volunteer the people who are interested to introduce the text, and I would give them the chance also to take any text they like to do, and they would have conversations with themselves … if we are doing the Qur’anic, the Hebrew Bible, the Christian text, so the facilitator would just meet together and discuss it and see which they like to come and discuss.
Penny: Mm-Hmm. But it's important that in scriptural reasoning, the purpose is not to convert other people, but actually just to understand how they read a passage or understand a topic in their faith tradition. Right?
Doaa: Yeah.
Penny: I'm wondering if you can share with us from your different experiences. What are the benefits of scriptural reasoning?
Frans: One of the best things about scriptural reasoning is when people start asking questions, and that's the fun thing about scriptural reasoning just to ask questions about the texts. And, you know, sometimes you're so familiar with your own texts that you start asking those questions and it takes …you need an outsider to ask those questions from it. And sometimes you ask questions. We say I never thought about it this way, and it gives you a new perspective on your own scriptural texts. And I think that's the most fun when from a different religious perspective, they see things in the texts that are obvious to them that you have read over 100 times and don't even notice anymore. Penny: Mm hmm.
Frans: So in that way, you discover new things about these texts. And I I find that the most fascinating aspect of the scriptural reasoning.
Penny: Sometimes that outside voice really shines a light on …and something that so familiar that we overlook. That's great. Any other benefits that you'd say, Oh, this is a great reason for people to consider some scriptural reasoning.
Jeff: I would just like to agree with Frans. And really scriptural reasoning has allowed me to go deeper into my own faith because others have great questions that I have never been encountered with. You know, I went to Calvin College, as it was back then. I went to Calvin Theological Seminary. I've been involved in men's group Bible studies, and the answers that come up are just kind of the same old, same old answers to the same old, same old questions. And we need new questions and others can bring those questions. And that's what I’ve found so refreshing and inspirational about scriptural reasoning. And so I'm never going to go to another men's group Bible study again. I'm a 46 year old wasp. [Penny laughs.] But yeah, that's funny, isn't it, Penny? Yes, I'm feeling really old and really white. Yeah, but what has really nourished me in my faith and this is why scriptural reasoning is important, I think: It's not about evangelism and socialization. It's about discipleship, and I am discovering that I am being discipled by others, cultural others and religious others who ask new questions about the scriptures that I've read over and over, the terms that I just gloss over. They'll say, What does that mean?
My favorite example comes from one of my colleagues at the Al Amana Centre, when a group of Christians and Omani Muslims were reading the story of Zacchaeus and one of the Omani said, Oh, now I understand why you say Jesus is God. And I've read this story, it never says in the story of Zacchaeus that Jesus is God. But the Omani saw something that I never saw before, and that is: Jesus invites himself over to Zacchaeus’ house. And in Omani culture nobody can do that. You can't just invite yourself into somebody else's house. They have to invite you. Not even the sultan can invite himself only over to somebody else's house. Only God could do that. And Jesus invites himself to Zacchaeus’ house. And it just never crossed my mind that that would be an indication of who Jesus is. But an Omani Muslim helped this group of scriptural reasoners and the Christians participating to see that and to see this story in a totally new way.
Penny: That is so cool. I'm wondering if Frans or Doaa have any specific stories or experiences that they would like to share about scriptural reasoning.
Frans: I was actually doing scriptural reasoning a long time before I knew what it was. And part of that comes out of my own research in which I …my Ph,D research and later scholarly research about Christians in the Middle Ages who consulted Jews on the old meaning of the Old Testament texts and in a pretty informal setting. I mean, in the Middle Ages, you have these disputations that were very contentious between Jews and Christians, and the mails led to hatred and persecution. But you also are in a much more informal--you have Christians who were trying to find out what the Old Testament really says. And the only way to do that was to knock on the door of the local synagogue, and they did that regularly.
So in order to do that kind of research, you need to know your Christian sources, but you also need to know Jewish sources. And my Hebrew is so-so. And I don't know …don't have the expertise of looking at the rabbinic sources. So, I approached the friends who were specialists. And together we had these long conversations about, Well, how does your man read his text? How do your people read that texts? So we were doing a scriptural reasoning on historical sources. It got me really interested also in, well, what does this mean for you and your faith traditions? It actually facilitated religious/ inter-religious dialog, and we started to explore each other's traditions in a more faithful way.
So I think that this whole idea of scriptural reasoning is something that's not invented in the last couple of years. Jews and Christians have been doing this for a long, long time. In a way exploring these texts and these traditions together makes you sensitive to each other's traditions and interested in each other’s traditions. Out of it grew a beautiful friendship. And I think that's one of the wonderful things that can grow out of scriptural reasoning-- that you start to make friendships and friends with other people from other traditions and create a setting in which you can discuss these texts in a non-threatening way. Because as friends, you may disagree sometimes. So, you may have your differences, but you can still sit together and discuss matters of life in a non-threatening way and then appreciate each other and share food, and share in hospitality, and actually also share some of your ideas and share your scriptural traditions together while remaining friends.
Penny: So, I think it's really great that scriptural reasoning… that I don't have to be afraid of it because it's not about someone trying to convert me or me trying to convert someone. And it's not about putting my faith in danger. It’s actually maybe helping me understand pieces of my faith in a richer way.
Doaa, I wonder if you have any particular experiences or stories you'd like to share about your scriptural reasoning experiences in the past?
Doaa: Yes, sure. So, although I just want to highlight the importance of diversity with S.R. as really something that I learned a lot from doing S.R. with people from different traditions. Because again, as a Muslim, when I'm thinking about Christianity, I'm thinking about Christianity as one group and when I'm thinking about Jewish people, as one group. But when doing S.R. itself, you can see like, OK, you know, sort of like a type of question, they ask me, it really varies and it depends on which denomination they are coming from. If they are faithful to their religion, if they are believers or not. Some people have certain culture and how the culture really impacts the way we’re thinking about their, you know, sort of like understanding their own scripture.
And so I have done is all with our group of Muslims, and I was a little bit scared because I wasn't sure if it could actually work in the sort flexing because it was my first time ever to do SR, all just within Muslims. It has…. It has no …someone from outside as outsider. But to my surprise, it was quite interesting because… so we have the … coming from different backgrounds and they are from different Arab countries. When we are reflecting on the text itself, we are actually reflecting differently. And this is how I learn culture is of great importance because as a Egyptian Muslim, I relate to my scripture in a way that's actually different from someone who is Omani Muslim. Some other one was like American-Muslim. So I see this sort of diversity coming within, and once we reflect on all scripture, I started to learn that as a Muslim, it's very hard to say we are just one group because there is other and various elements and factors that really, you know, impact the way we understand our own scripture.
Penny: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. So, if someone was interested in pursuing or getting involved, exploring a scriptural reasoning meeting or option, how could they go about that? What would you recommend?
Frans: The Kaufman Institute was organizing scriptural reasoning sessions. That's how I got involved. I've done also, and I want to say a little bit more later about the S.R. as an educational tool, because I think that's an important way to teach interreligious dialog, too. But some students who could not participate in the scriptural reasoning that I was organizing with Justin at the time, I just told them to go online and find scriptural reasoning sessions. And there's quite a few that are being organized, many of whom are on Zoom. So, students found their own groups and participated in those and had a great experience.
Penny: Could you talk a little bit about scriptural reasoning as an educational tool?
Frans: After the session in the summer kind of a pilot study of trying to get students involved through the Al Amana Centre with scripture listening, Jeff and I decided to have a whole class dedicated to scriptural reasoning in the spring of last year. That worked very well. The students got to talk about scriptures, their own scriptures, got to explore the Qur’an and explore the tradition of other students, in a kind of a non-threatening way. And students were at first quite apprehensive; they thought, Oh, I, I need to defend my faith here. And they were quite pleased to note that nothing of that happened. They could just sit around with students of other cultures, other traditions, and in a in a non-threatening way and discuss how they read the scriptures. And they made friends online on Zoom. And students were quite positive about the experience. They entered into the sessions with a certain amount of apprehension. But at the end, some of them said, Well, the other kids they’re just boys and girls. And I think that was the best discovery that they made that people from other religious traditions are humans just like them. And they struggle with sometimes the same questions, and they don't always have the answers. You don't always have to have the answers. So, it humanizes the others. And I think that was one of the best educational experiences. That's the best learning outcomes of this course that I could have imagined.
Penny: That's wonderful and having those respectful conversations, which brings in and allows people to talk about their faith, I think that really builds those relationships that, you know, as Eboo Patel says, really can help us and society and our world kind of build a network that allows us to live in equal dignity and mutual loyalty. Right? That's kind of the whole interfaith thing.
Doaa: I think for myself, when I look at S.R. as an educational tool, I thought of students who are studying back home in Egypt as well in university, many students are studying religious studies. They are actually like, start like to learn more about Christianity and Judaism. But they didn't have the chance to encounter with someone from those traditions and read those scriptures. And geographically speaking, it's really hard to find, you know, sponsorship for those students to be able to travel abroad and have sort of like a maybe a similar experience to myself. So, my way of just paying back to my institution back home in Egypt, I thought, why don't I can create some sort of like online platform, especially during pandemic time? To allow those students to encounter with the other meet students from all over the world?
So, with the help of my colleague, Joel, we were able to find a sponsorship by Gingko library. It's actually non-profit organization in London. And they were …we were able together to work on this, and each year now we are having a number of students from Egypt and from the U.K. and also to some extent from the U.S. the students are coming together. I hear a lot of very positive feedback from students about how they felt about doing S.R. And, as I said, this idea of like someone will have never met someone from the other tradition… It was really a good chance for them to learn more about the other tradition because again, they said, like, we have been studying religion in theory, but never to encounter someone from those traditions. And how people are people from different cultures. But how culture is actually playing an important role in… when reflecting on their scripture.
Penny: Mm hmm. So scriptural reasoning is definitely something that I think could be a really interesting practice to actually help kind of heal some of the rifts in our society today and give us closer relationships with people from different religious backgrounds.
Jeff: You know, we have this notion that community is built upon sameness. And I think that's something we really need to look at. Community is built upon sameness and difference, and we have this notion that we have to agree in order to be a community. But, you know, we disagree, as Doaa pointed out. There's a lot of diversity among us. We don't agree. There's not always consensus. But what I find really helpful, especially from an educational perspective, is even if we have different answers to the questions, we are asking very similar questions. Or sometimes we are asking different questions and we need to explore that. But what I find really fascinating is that: What could build community and help us all go forward is to find those questions that we all need to address, even if our answers at the moment aren't in alignment or contradict, we still can continue to ask those questions and to seek understanding. That understanding is something we're always coming to. It's not something that we have. It's not a possession. It's something we're coming to. And I think that's where we can really, in scriptural reasoning, not be face-to-face, but to be side-by-side as we ask those questions together and pursue our different answers. Our diverse answers. But then be together in a way that builds friendship. And that's really what I think the value of scripture reasoning is: that it builds this kind of friendship, as we together seek the truth and seek understanding even if we don't all agree.
You know, if you have a best friend, you don't necessarily have to agree with their best friend on everything, but you could just stick with their friend and you know that friend will stick with you. And I think that's where S.R. can go a long way in building community. And for me, as Frans pointed out, S.R. is nothing new. It's been done since the medieval period. And S.R. is not just a brand name, but it has really become, for me, a community of people who are trying to seek friendship, come to understanding, even if we disagree. Certainly, finding your own themes that are critical to you, crucial to you and then going to scripture is the best way to go. Allowing scripture to speak into your own context and your own issues and your own problems, and then finding those scriptures that are dear to you and asking your friends from other religious traditions to do the same. And so that you're sharing your scriptures, you're sharing was dear to you from your heart. That's, you know, you can use the packaged text bundles, but it's also very special to develop your own. It's just kind of, you know, it's Christmas time, and it's kind of like sharing your grandma's Christmas cookie recipe with somebody else, something that you really treasure-- a scripture that’s dear to your heart and ask you somebody else to taste it.
Penny: That's a wonderful metaphor.
Frans: Yeah, this is not something that you have to do along very specific rules, so you can just get together with a number of friends across religions and say, Hey, let's do this sometime, right? It's the informality is, I think, one of the strengths of scriptural reasoning.
Jeff: And what's really been exciting for me is even in this pandemic period, when we have to work on Zoom, I continue to make new friends. I've just really enjoyed my time with Doaa and Frans on Zoom as we meet together every month and do scriptural reasoning. It doesn't matter who's organizing it. We all take turns. We continue on in this. It's an ongoing conversation and a friendship that isn't just going to come to an end because we agree it's going to continue on because we have a lot of questions.
Penny: So I'm wondering if, in particular, Doaa and Jeff could tell us exactly or approximately how to find out more about joining a scriptural reasoning group. Doaa, could you begin?
Doaa: Gingko Library is the sponsor of the project I'm doing so far. On their website ….
If you go to gingko, it's gingko.org.uk. There's actually a website and most of the posts we are doing for S.R. is on their website. But also there is something. If people are interested, they can just register their interest and we just take it from there and we email people who are interested and then we make sure we involve them on the go …get email so we can just keep them updated on the coming events of S.R.
Penny: All wonderful. And Jeff, I know that the Al Amana Centre also has some resources for people interested in S.R.
Jeff: Yes, we certainly do. We do so here in Oman. During the pandemic period, we were organizing S.R. on Zoom. Now, as Al Center moves back to in-person programing, we've been working very closely with Doaa and the Gingko Foundation to continue online with Zoom. But our focus now is doing S.R. in-person here in Oman and we have a number of programs, short term programs, spring break, fall break programs, January and May term programs, as well as a semester abroad that all involve scripture reasoning.
One of the best resources if you would just like to learn more about scriptural reasoning is the website scripturalreasoning.org, which is hosted by one of our partners, Rose Castle Foundation, and they've taken over this program from the Cambridge Interfaith Program. So that is simply the website scripturalreasoning.org. You can also look at the Al Amana Centre website and find the link there, too, or you can communicate with me.
Penny: Well, thank you so much again for joining us today. Doaa and Frans and Jeff, I really have admired your work in scriptural reasoning, in particular, now for several years, and I hope that folks that are listening in, their curiosity is piqued, and that they might actually explore this option, this idea for connecting across lines of religious difference and creating relationships that really matter.
If you're interested in learning more about interfaith engagement and dialog, consider listening to the Diversity and Inclusion for All podcast Episode number 6: “An Introduction to Interfaith Engagement” or perhaps Episode 20: “Strategies for Muslim Christian Engagement.” If you're curious about Islam and want to explore similarities and differences between Islam and Christianity, check out Episode 10: “Jesus and Mohammed,” and perhaps Episode 7: “Allah and God. Same or different? And how?”
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast to stay informed about future episodes. Do you have a friend who would be interested in today's topic? We'd love it if you'd share our work with them. Our hope is that this project will spark good conversations and provide learning resources that inspire diversity and inclusion work. All views and opinions expressed in our episodes are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and positions of Calvin University or the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship.