Continue learning about Islam and Muslim-Christian Engagement in this exploration of how Muslims and Christians view Jesus and Muhammad.
Transcript: Jesus and Muhammad
Doug: In spite of our current competitive stance, Islam versus Christianity, Muhammad versus Jesus, that may not be the most helpful comparison.
Frans: Jesus is somebody different for people in different faiths, traditions, and you have to acknowledge those differences and respect those differences before you can start talking about about similarities and and maybe parallels.
Penny: Welcome to the Diversity and Inclusion for All project supported by Calvin University and the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship. Together, we'll listen to key perspectives, build our knowledge, inform our thinking, and get a little better equipped to engage our world.
Welcome, everyone. We're here again to talk with our special guests, Doug Howard and Frans van Liere. To learn more about Islam and Muslim Christian engagement. Today, we're interested in digging a little deeper and understanding some key differences in how Muslims and Christians view the figure of Jesus and the figure of Muhammad. What is the most important thing for our listeners to know about Muhammad?
Doug: The most important thing that our students need to know about Muhammad: Muhammad was a man. And Muhammad was a holy man, a man who …whose life experiences led him into encounters with God.
Frans: I think very often what is hard for Christians to understand about Muhammad and Muslim attitudes towards Muhammad is that Muslims always emphasize Muhammad was not divine. He's not like like Jesus, you know, who was an incarnation of the divine. Muhammad is human. And but at the same time, he is very revered. He's not an object of veneration because only God is worthy of veneration. But to insult Muhammad or say bad things about Muhammad, that's that's a great insult to Islam. And that's why you have these controversies also with the Muhammad cartoons in in France and in Denmark. You know, that's a that's a very sensitive topic for for Muslims. And Christians sometimes say, oh, that's a sensitive subject because they they think Muhammad is divine. But it's it's …he's just a very venerable, revered human person.
Doug: Among the Muslims I've known the attitude towards Muhammad is ambivalent. They affirm that he was a man who lived in history and only a man, as Frans said, not divine or semi-divine or an incarnation of divine, nothing like that. Yet at the same time, he was an ideal man, the complete person of a whole human being, and the model for all of us. And and therefore. Yes, so he's the… he's the human being, most beloved and most admired.
Frans: About that: When you look at the iconographic tradition, right. The way that Muhammad is depicted in in miniature Persian miniatures, very often his his face is not filled in or he is veiled. And he's very often depicted with a great fire emanating from from him showing, yeah, this is a very special human being, somebody who is completely full of God. And therefore, is this, you know, speaking the word of God. He’s a mediator in that sense of God speaks to him and he speaks to us.
Doug: Chosen by God to be the vessel of the revelation. Right.
Penny: So Muhammad is really seen not as a deity, not as something to be worshiped, but he's highly revered. And I remember hearing and I've I've heard different Muslims talk. And even when they mention his name, they will often say, grace be upon him or some equivalent to that. I remember learning too that he was as a historical figure, both like a general sort of a military figure. Is that true? And a religious figure and sort of a civic leader at the same time?
Doug: Yeah, I think that's true. Muhammad, as a historical person and even as a respected, revered originator of faith, is kind of a combination of a Moses and a Joshua in the same person. So he's the one who brings the law of God revealed to him, but also the one who who leads the believing community in military conflict against enemies of God.
Frans: Yeah, Muhammad is a prophet. I really would like to emphasize this prophetic tradition. You can see that starting in the Old Testament, but in in Muslim views of what a prophet is, a prophet is somebody who speaks the words of God into the community. Christian sometimes has a very narrow idea of what a prophet or who a prophet is. And think about the authors of the prophetic books in the Old Testament. But the Muslim idea of a prophet is much wider. And, you know, in a way, Abraham was seen as a prophet, and the patriarchs are seen as prophetic figures. Noah is a prophet and Moses is a prophet as well. Even Jesus is seen as a as a prophet. And then now this line of prophets culminates in in Muhammad, who is seen as the ultimate prophet, the seal of the prophets, the last one, the last word of God to humankind.
There is an important difference with Christian views of what a prophet is and what a prophet does to …as compared to Islam, because many of the Old Testament figures that are regarded as prophets in the r and Christians very often see these people as as flawed as well as vehicles of a divine message.
But very often, you know, Abraham had his mistakes. Noah gets drunk and and many … David's sins against Bathsheba in the Qur’an. You get many of the same stories, but you can see that there the the the human flaws are deemphasized. And because prophets really need to be people who are have reached a certain amount of divine perfection. They really walk in the ways of God in all aspects of their life. And that's why God chooses them to to convey his message.
So that's very often an important difference between the Qur’anic stories about these Old Testament figures and the way that Christians see these Old Testament figures.
Doug: And in the Qur’an, in each case, these prophets bring the same message. It's the same message throughout time to different communities. And the Qur'an emphasizes that human communities have a tendency to forget God and they need reminders. And the prophets are our reminders.
Penny: So I like the idea and I want to return to that about how Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, kind of in a line of prophets. Could you could you help me understand how the Muslim idea of what a prophet is differs or is different from maybe a standard or traditional Christian idea about what a prophet is?
Doug: in the Qur’an there are a lot of prophets and each seems to be appointed and given a message by God for their community. And so Jesus in the Qur’an is the prophet appointed by God with a message to the children of Israel.
Penny: But in the Muslim tradition, Jesus is considered a prophet with a special message to a particular people at a particular time. But he is not seen as a deity or as the son of God. Is that correct?
Doug: The Qur’an is really intent to refute the the the Christian Trinitarian Christology. So Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus, son of Mary, he's called in the Qur’an repeatedly, Jesus son of Mary was a man, not a divine incarnate. And in fact, in the Qur’an, Jesus himself rebukes Christians for deifying him.
Penny: How do Muslims view then, the Christian Bible, where I read that Jesus says he's the son of God, like how do we …how did they understand Jesus from the Christian Bible, or is that just a secondary piece of literature? And the stuff in the Qur’an, those other things in the Qur’an are more true than the Christian Bible stories of Jesus.
Frans: Well, yeah, it is it is the way you say it. You know, Muslims see the Qur’an as as the perfect revelation of of God. So they you know, they they read the gospels, they they regard the gospels as as, you know, having a certain amount of authority. But they also there's also the idea that the Christians have somehow corrupted the message of Jesus. So when in Christian gospels, it says, you know, Jesus saying I am I am God or I am the son of God, they regarded this as corruptions that were brought in by Christians into the message of Jesus. They say, you know, Jesus cannot have said that because he was a prophet. So that …they regard this as as flaws that were brought in by Christians in Jesus’ message.
Penny: So if according to Islam, if Jesus was a prophet sent by God with a special message for a certain people at a certain time, what are like his key message to the people that God sent him with, according to Islam?
Doug: You know, Jesus is my message is not different than other prophets, and he articulates the message of the Qur’an as well. So there is one God, only one being worthy of worship. Humans who forever have forgotten this message should turn to God and submit themselves to them to God.
Frans: And Jesus is is quite interesting in the Qur’an. Many of the stories about Jesus that we find in the Qur’an are actually coming from apocryphal Christian sources. So Christian traditions about Jesus, that did not make it into the mainstream of Christian belief. And many of them are miracle stories. Many of them are stories about Jesus's youth and childhood. Jesus is also regarded as a great miracle worker in the Qur’an. You know, he does do miracles, which is actually an interesting difference with Muhammad, because Muhammad is not doing any miracles in the Qur’an. Islam says, look, the Qur’an itself is the miracle … is revelation that comes out of the mouth of Muhammad. And Muhammad does not do need to do any special miracles to to prove the truth of that message. But Jesus, by contrast, is somebody who who does heal sick people and who does do miracles in order to show that power of God.
Doug: Yes. And especially he's the one who brings life in out of death. He raises the dead in the Islamic tradition. Jesus is the one who gives life where there is none.
Frans: There's a wonderful story in one of the apocryphal Christian sources, a childhood gospel about the childhood of Jesus, which has a story of the little boy Jesus making little toy birds out of clay. And then he brings these birds to life. So he makes these clay birds. And then through a miracle they, they fly away and they become live birds. That's the story that we find in a rather obscure early Christian source that has been sort of forgotten in Christianity, certainly not mainstream. But it made it into into the Qur’anic narrative about Jesus.
Doug: And in this way, the Qur’an is often accessing and commenting on and interpreting a broader spiritual tradition than.. than is represented necessarily in the Christian canon.
Penny: So in Islam, Jesus is seen as a Life-Giving miracle working figure. Is there any understanding in Islam of Jesus having died and risen again, or is that just not part of how Muslims see Jesus?
Frans: and throughout different traditions about Jesus's death, the Qur’an says that Jesus is is taken to heaven. And there's also a tradition that says that it is not the Jews who killed Jesus. Now, you can interpret that in two ways. It's somebody else who killed Jesus or that the Jews did not kill Jesus, that they maybe thought they killed him, but they know they were mistaken about that notion. So the Qur’an is … doesn't really tell whether Jesus died or not. The Qur’an only states that Jesus is taken into heaven. So there are there …are different traditions about Jesus's death in Islam.
Penny: So as a Christian, I can say, I believe that Jesus died. We say “died for my sins,” right? Is there any kind of that atonement story or piece in the Islamic understanding of Jesus?
Frans: No. No, absolutely not. No. The way salvation in Islam is in the human response to God's word. So there is no mediation that is that is necessary in that. There is no atonement necessary for … for sins.
Penny: So as I'm trying to understand how Muslims see Jesus, which …and they don't all see him exactly the same I’m understanding and how I can better understand who the figure of Muhammad is for Muslims. I'm wondering, why do you think this is important for us to understand or know, and how can a little better understanding of how Muslims and Christians see Muhammad and Jesus differently, how can that help us engage well across these religious lines?
Doug: To me, it's inescapable that we live in this moment where Islam and Christianity are often thought of as competing religions. I don't think necessarily that that's the only way to see it, but I think that's where we're at. And so to me, it really helps me understand, Muhammad, if I can shift the comparison away from Muhammad and Jesus to a different kind of comparison, Muhammad and Moses, or as as we were talking about earlier, Muhammad and Moses-Joshua. Right. So that we …it allows us to see that the Islamic tradition, there's a lot of similarities to Judaism. The stories of the call of Muhammad when he first met the angel seem intentionally to recall prophetic stories from the Old Testament, especially Moses and the burning bush. And both Moses and Muhammad bring the law of God again. And both Muhammad and Moses and Joshua are worldly leaders, not otherworldly and not divine. And and because of this, we can see that Islam has practices that also parallel those in Judaism. So there's the centrality of confession of faith that, you know, there is no God but God. There's a kind of Jewish equivalent in the shema: Hear, O Israel, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one. There are dietary laws in Islam that resemble closely those in Judaism, Muslims and Jews both circumcise their children, their their their male children. Christians do not. Both Islam and Judaism are anti-Trinitarian and so on. And so I think it's helpful to realize that in spite of our current competitive stance, Islam versus Christianity, Muhammad versus Jesus, that may not be the most helpful comparison.
Frans: No, I completely agree with Doug. In a way, sometimes people think, oh, it's it's a wonderful way to start a conversation and it's a wonderful, wonderful way to connect Muslims and Christians by saying, oh, they both have Jesus as a very important figure. And it can be a matter where Muslims and Christians connect, but it can also be a very contentious issue of division once they start talking about, well, who do you think, you know, who is Jesus for you? And there is there are huge differences, of course, between Islam and in Christianity, even to the extent that some some Christians in Muslim countries use a different name for Jesus than the Muslims. You know, Muslims called Jesus Isa, and sometimes Christians living in in Muslim countries called Jesus Yeshu to indicate, look, we're really talking about a different guy. But I think you have to acknowledge that Jesus is somebody different for people in different faiths, traditions, and you have to acknowledge those differences and respect those differences before you can start talking about about similarities and and maybe parallels. It is fascinating for Christians to encounter Jesus. The traces that Jesus left in other faith traditions, the other traditions that people talk about him. I think we can learn about him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are always a useful way to bridge religious differences. It's more a way to appreciate the differences than a way to to connect across differences sometimes.
Penny: So if I want to show respect for an Islamic neighbor or colleague, is there things I need to avoid when it comes to actually talking about Muhammad or Islam or Allah? I, of course, as a Christian, I don't want to do or say things that are going to somehow indicate that I don't believe things that I believe are true about God or Jesus. But are there things that can just tips that I can keep in mind? To really be respectful? And now that I maybe know just a little bit more about how they see Jesus and Muhammad.
Frans: I think the key word here is, is respect. And, you know, just don't say disrespectful things about each other's leaders, and respect the beliefs of others about these leaders, as well. Sometimes Christians think that the best way to to validate Christianity and invalidate Islam is to repeat vile stories and stories about Muhammad that depict him as a as a madman or as a as a lunatic or somebody who's suffering from epilepsy. Right from the beginning. I think you can see in Christianity's stories that circulated to to to discredit Muhammad. And I think those stories are disrespectful. And Christians should just say, look, they don't have any historical validity. They are disrespectful. You should just not lend any credence to that kinds of stories about the leaders and the other faith tradition.
Penny: Thank you for helping me understand a little bit. I feel like I've just started to scratch the surface to understand how Muslims or different Muslims might see Jesus, and then how I as a Christian, can maybe understand a little better how they see Muhammad and the role and the figure that he is for them in their faith life. And hopefully we're as we're learning more about Muslims and Islam and Muslim-Christian engagement, will be better able to engage across the lines of religious difference with our Muslim neighbors.
If you're interested to learn more about Islam and about the ways that Muslims and Christians think about things similarly and differently, I'd encourage you to listen to our other episodes in this mini-series on Muslim Christian engagement. Other episodes include topics such as An Introduction to Interfaith Engagement, God and Allah--Same or Different and How, and diversity within Islam.
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