Episode 39: Faithful Advocacy: Deep Listening, the Long View, and Christian Perspectives
Mike: There's often a naive assumption in Christian social justice circles that churches and settlers can be a voice for the voiceless in a really noble way. We need to recognize that no one is voiceless, if we take the time to listen. It invites humility and conversation and hopefully a solid disposition of trusting dialog.
Penny: Welcome everyone to the Diversity and Inclusion for All podcast, a podcast and project of Calvin University. I'm excited today to have us my guest, Mike Hogeterp, who is the director of the Christian Reformed Centre for Public Dialogue. Mike has some great stories and experiences to help us think about diversity, inclusion, and then how to engage well in our diverse communities and across our lines of difference, especially when we have different opinions. And I know there's lots of polarization and sometimes tribalization happening in the United States, as well as in Canada, where Mike lives and works, and we want to learn together from Mike some great ways to do this work better.
Welcome to the diversity and inclusion for all project supported by Calvin University and the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship. Together, we'll listen to key perspectives, build our knowledge, inform our thinking, and get a little better equipped to engage our world.
Thank you again for joining us. I know that you are the director of the Christian Reformed Centre for Public Dialogue in Ottawa, Canada. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that organization and your work in Canada.
Mike: As the Centre for Public Dialogue or an office of the Christian Reform Church, we've we've got a heritage of more than 50 years now. We were established as a committee of the first reformed churches early on, called the Committee for contact with Government. And that outfit has been running for for just over 50 years. Through those 50 years, we've run through a wide range of justice topics, as you might expect. These days, we tend to focus in on on a small amount of issues for the for the sake of focus and consistency. We call it “centimeter wide, kilometer deep.” And the reason for that is, we believe through the lens of Romans 13 for the work of interacting thoughtfully with with parliamentarians. with our government leaders, requires a constructive approach, a deep approach, a rich approach.
Now Romans 13 for calls governing authorities, “God's servants for our good.” We think that's an active and a prayerful manner. The reality is Canada is very much a complex and diverse society with overlapping demands and justice requirements that frankly are vexing for for political leaders. And they have to find a way to balance those conflicting demands.
The other reality when it comes to parliamentarians is to again recognize parliamentarians have an incredibly challenging task. Just coming with with complaints and saying you've got to fix this is frankly not enough. We need to come with ideas that are thoughtful and constructive and responsive to to their challenges as leaders. And that's a real, real challenge. It has all these intersecting obligations like legal and fiscal that must must be addressed. So we, for this reason, don't go in, you know, beating a drum, saying you must do this for whatever reason. We go in in a in a respectful manner based on considered thought research. And again, listening carefully to voices of affected communities. We try to come with constructive ideas, ideas that say, OK, here's a perplexing problem. And here are a few ideas that we think may contribute to some viable solutions. So that's the reason why we we work on a on a small set of issues, and we also tend to
work on a small, separate set of issues for a very long time.
Penny: So, I know one of the issues that you work on is indigenous rights and reconciliation. What are the other ones that are your primary focus areas today.
Mike: Today the core issues are indigenous rights. Certainly. And then also refugee resettlement issues. The CRC in Canada has been what's called a sponsorship agreement holders since the beginning of that program. More than 40 years ago. The sponsorship of refugees from overseas by church communities is a has been a really important tool in Canada for the settlement and successful integration of refugees in communities across the country. I would actually venture a guess that there is not a CRC church in Canada that has not interacted with a refugee sponsorship in one way or another, either financially or directly or in person. That's true, certainly since the Syrian crisis, but well before that, for instance, the the program, the sponsorship program itself kicked off in the context of the Vietnamese diaspora following the Vietnam War and the program has developed since then. So our advocacy on on that file has to do with encouraging smooth functioning of the sponsorship system and removing barriers to sponsorship and settlement.
We're blessed to be able to do that work in close concert with World Renewal here in Canada, who do the bulk of the settlement and sponsorship work in interface with churches.
Penny: So, your team at the Centre for Public Dialogue does a lot of advocacy work, as well as sort of relationship building and reaching out to both the indigenous communities and then different refugee communities?
Mike: That's correct.
Penny: I'm wondering if you could give us some tips, if you would, for how to engage well across those lines of difference.
Mike: Penny, I'd say that the beginning of the answer to that starts with the disposition of patient listening, and it begins with the affected communities. So, listening carefully to refugees, refugees, stories, sponsor stories really critical. We can't go in with integrity to talk to parliamentarians about challenges in the sponsorship system without knowing those stories. We cannot, as settlers, presume to know the challenges and experiences of indigenous communities. So, a listening, posture needs to be shaped by a spiritual discipline that actually wrestles with some of the ontological realities of colonialism and injustice.
There's often a naive assumption in Christian social justice circles that churches and settlers can be a voice for the voiceless in a really noble way. Well, I was confronted by by that the use of that phrase several years back. A dear friend and mentor said, Why do you guys want to be involved in indigenous justice and reconciliation? And one of our leaders at the time said, Well, we'd like to be a voice for the voiceless. And this indigenous leader’s response was: Well, with respect, I'm not voiceless. You're you're you're deaf.
So the point is when we enter into advocacy, we need to recognize that no one is voiceless, if we take the time to listen. And that listening deeply and carefully and then amplifying those voices through a process of bearing witness is the best service that we can provide because frankly, as a settler, as a second-generation immigrant, I can't begin to understand the experience of an indigenous person. I can't begin to understand the experience of a Syrian refugee. So, recognizing that that voice …those voices are/need to be primary in the way we carry ourselves into bearing witness is critical.
Now, those aren't terribly practical insights, Penny, but I think when you begin a disposition of advocacy that way, it invites humility and conversation and hopefully a solid disposition of trusting dialog.
Penny: What else is critical for us to keep in mind as we advocate for and nurture relationship with our indigenous neighbors?
Mike: The problem is when it when it comes to many of these deep structural issues, indigenous affairs being one of them, the horizon for for change, particularly given the depths of the injustices, tends to be really, really long. In the truth and reconciliation period, we were deeply blessed to to have a remarkable Ojibwe elder Justice Murray Sinclair lead as the lead commissioner in that period. He often brought out really rich perspectives on what reconciliation takes, and he basically said, Look, colonization in Canada - the colonial period- was at least 150 years, seven generations. So, expect that reconciliation is a generational project.
Penny: Mm hmm.
Mike: Commissioner Sinclair, he’s now in his late sixties, he said very clearly, Look, I don't expect to see it in my lifetime. I'm in my fifties, Penny, and I don't expect to see it in my lifetime either. But a long obedience in the same direction as Eugene Peterson point us to.
Penny: Mm-Hmm.
Mioke: This is really important when it comes to reconciliation. This is something that the current generations need to invest in and recognize: that this is not the attention span of a political cycle or a media cycle. It's it's the attention span of multiple generations. And I think, you know, that's a really rich spiritual disposition because it recognizes we have responsibilities, what I'd call treaty and covenantal responsibilities, to ourselves, our children, the land, and future generations.
Penny: You referred to Commissioner Sinclair and his perspective of sort of the long game. Right? The long haul and that long term commitment. And it's not just to an individual, but it's to uh… it's between communities, right? And I feel like that too--t's a very Christian idea, the idea that we want to invest in an area, a community that isn't just to get to check something off our list, the “do good” list or the “got to pass this law” list or “this one specific thing that's bothering me” list. But we're actually investing in relationship, not relationship with individuals, but with communities. And that is multigenerational. And that is kind of that seeing others as fellow human beings and brothers and sisters with whom we need to live in community, right?... with whom over time, not just with individual and not just with Joe down the street, but with that whole community that we need to live reconciled lives, that we need to, as Eboo Patel has said, in equal dignity and mutual loyalty.
Mike: I love that. It reminds me of something a dear friend and mentor said to me: where there is a wrong there is a right. And in this case, the right was that indigenous people struggled to protect their languages, their cultures and their ceremonies for generations, even in spite of the onslaught of colonization and residential schools and profound political and spiritual violence and physical violence remained resilient in throughout that period. And that's because Creator protected those ceremonies, those languages, those cultures. And Uncle Terry said in that context that the preservation of that right means that in the context of an apology, in the context of reconciliation, that the voices and experiences and perspectives of indigenous people need to be re-acquired, for the health and well-being of, yes, indigenous communities, but also the health and well-being of living together well in this place for all of us. So that resilience is a testimony and a seed for reconciliation that I think is just beautiful.
And in my own personal experience, in deepening relationships with with indigenous people, friends, communities, mentors, elders and so forth, I've learned more, Penny, about what it is to know creator and forgiveness and reconciliation in those relationships than I have in 50 years of of learning in a separate church context. It's been beautiful.
Penny: That is an insight that I love to bring into my classrooms and my teaching and training opportunities. Especially for Christians, I actually feel we have so much to learn from people who are not just like us about how to see God and how to see the world. And I know I've just learned so much from neighbors who are not like myself, from everything from like things and insights about prayer to how to question without doubting, if that makes any sense. And just how to live and love the land and be in relationship with land, which I don't think about… I didn't think about growing up in the same way that some of my other friends from different cultures think about the land. So, yeah, I just think we, as Christians have so much to learn when we engage across those lines of difference in good ways.
The next step would be what? Like once we we get into listening mode, we have that right attitude, we're focusing on the communities and maybe on relationships with those communities. What else can help us do this work in good ways?
Mike: When it comes to advocacy, particularly, the most important thing is is persistence. It's not a matter of, you know, simply sending off an advocacy alert, you know, an electronic action alert, which is really easy. I think you know, if and when as a citizen, you do such a thing, it also makes sense, particularly in Canada, to take the second step and reach out to a parliamentarian's office and say, I sent you this letter and we'd love to talk about it. Can we have a chat by phone or can we meet face to face in non-COVID times. By building that consistency of interaction you demonstrate a commitment to an issue that allows a parliamentarian, a public leader, to recognize you as someone first of all, who cares. And then second of all, as someone who has a valuable perspective and contribution that they need to pay attention to. That's important for political change. But don't expect that it's going to change things tomorrow. Again, this is the long game of advocacy. So, building those relationships with parliamentarians in a in a constructive and respectful way is really critical.
Penny: I wonder if you could also talk a little bit about sort of what kinds of diversity and inclusion learning, understanding, ways of seeing the world, things do we need to be aware of, do we need to do in order to do advocacy work like this? Well, what has been your experience and what has helped other people come on board in informed and helpful ways to do good advocacy work?
Mike: Seek an advocate advocacy posture that that bears witness. First of all, it needs to be involved in deeply patient listening. So it's not a matter of going to the the the technical, sociological, economic and political research and just echoing it in public policy briefs and conversations. It's about listening deeply to to the voices of affected communities and allowing that to cut to the heart for for the settler ally. And for for that that heart learning to be a lens that you bring into advocacy analysis and analysis and conversation. That's a posture. It's it's also a spiritual discipline. It's also very much counterintuitive to to a standard western ways of knowing and thinking, which tend to be quite linear. That process of deep listening takes a lot of time, and it often challenges assumptions that that I as a settler might have-- a white settler with a Western education=-- and upending those those assumptions in the in the way we approach analysis and so forth.
Penny: I think too, like in my own western bias, we want efficiency. We want like give me the bottom line, outline that in three bullet points I can report to my superior, and those kind of things. And that strikes me as a little counter to this idea of deeply patient listening, right? There, there's a different economy and a different kind of efficiency that needs to be part of that.
Mike: Another place that it has deep significance is is actually in the context of worship and liturgy. And I know full well that one of the dispositions when it comes to diversity that's common in the Christian Reformed community is that we'll say well in the name of diversity, we'd like to welcome you to the table. And in that context, it's the the settler saying to a BIPOC person, well, you're welcome in our midst. That assumes that the table is something that we as settlers own. And I don't think that's a welcoming disposition.
Penny: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.
Mike: And when we think about the table and we think about worship and liturgy in a kinship context, it means that recognizing that the table is something that is owned by only Jesus Christ, Jesus has formed the table, given it to us, and we need to discern together what it is and how to be together in a good way at that table. So, dropping these ideas of ownership, we come to the table together. Essentially, what Jesus is calling us to is to being a new family that steps away from these colonial assumptions and ontologies that the doctrine of discovery and colonization have given us.
It's about getting rid of these western notions that we define the table, you know, theologically, liturgically, what have you. It's recognizing and honoring the fact that the table is a is a beautiful tapestry given to us by Christ in the rich cultural identities and contributions that each of us bring.
That's a beautiful vision of “already not yet” for sure.
Penny: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Thank you so much for that image, too. And this idea of kinship. Right? That when we engage across all our different lines of difference, we're engaging with siblings. And that's just something to, I think, that especially we as Christians, need to keep in mind and try to live into.
I want to thank Mike for joining us today, for giving us a little glimpse about, first of all, just about the work, the amazing work of the Christian Reformed Centre for Public Dialogue, but also just giving us some really good ways to think about how to engage well across lines of difference, how to do justice and advocacy with healthy humility, deeply patient listening attitudes and also how … what it means to bear witness, to raise and highlight and make us able and willing to listen to the voices that are there, but that just we we have we have been deaf to and we have ignored for so long.
I'd like to encourage our listeners if you're interested in finding out more about the work of the Christian Reformed Centre for Public Dialogue, you can google that and they have some great resources and some links to podcasts, article or blog articles, including a lot of articles that our guest, Michael Hogeterp has written. And so I'd encourage you to take a look over there. If you're interested in the advocacy work specifically that is talked about and worked on by the Christian Reformed Church in North America and in the United States and Canada. You can also go to this website: DoJustice.crcna.org. And there you can find lots of also very interesting, engaging resources, stories, videos to help you maybe as an on-ramp to some of the different issues that the CRCNA advocates for and is interested in promoting as areas of learning and growth for our different communities.
If you are interested in learning about the history of settlement in the United States Midwest, listen to the Diversity and Inclusion for All podcast Episodes 33 and 34, where Professor Joe Kuilema outlines important history that helps us understand the colonizing of the Midwest and of West Michigan in particular.
History professors Eric Washington and Will Katerberg discuss additional helpful background information in Episode 12: Settler colonialism and Native Americans. Finally, if you're interested in learning about land acknowledgment, check out our Episodes 2 and 3 (Introducing Land Acknowledgment, and Whose Wisdom do you Trust? How to go about land acknowledgments?).
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